Not only should he be newcomer of the year, but Hayward should also receive HL POY as well.
Discuss.
edited for ufr
Discuss.
edited for ufr
POY
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 riksmits4prez |
POY |
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Posts: 207 (02/17/09 02:49 PM) |
Last Edited By: riksmits4prez 02/17/09 04:06 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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downtownshooter |
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Posts: 1765 (02/17/09 03:26 PM) |
If we get back on track and win the league outright by a couple of games, I think the award has to go to a Bulldog. Mayo is a tremendous player, as is Bullock,
but neither have led their team to a finish that people were expecting. I would hope that team underachieving takes away from inidividual accolades.
As for breaking it down between Howard and Hayward, I think Matt has to get it. He has been more consistent this season and more valuable to Butler as a player. He is the ONLY inside presence for this team. While the statistics are similar, Howard puts them up while taking a beating and being the subject of defensive gameplans more often. I am stealing a line from another poster, but his performance in the loss on Sunday should have sealed the deal if this team goes on to win the league. He proved he is the MVP of this team. His play gives this team its identity. The irony is, as a sophomore, he has two more years to win the award, but I expect Hayward to surpass him in terms of value as early as next season. |
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Upon Further Review |
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Posts: 4450 (02/17/09 03:40 PM) |
Blake Griffin. End of story.
Regarding the HL POY, I suppose Hayward putting the team on his back at end of the season and being the clear-cut reason for some wins could change my mind, but right now I'm solidly with Howard. Pretty much what dts said. I probably have a couple minor modifications, but it's so much easier to say, "Yeah, what he said." |
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dogace38 |
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Posts: 342 (02/17/09 03:47 PM) |
Howard. I think voters will look at league games strongly to determine the league awards. I think Matt has been stronger in conference play than Gordon, or
anyone else in the league for that matter.
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JRSmith122 |
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Posts: 517 (02/17/09 08:14 PM) |
Howard--who would Brad least like to lose? It's not close.
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vinceyoung |
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Posts: 13 (02/17/09 08:35 PM) |
Just to throw out an opposite opinion. We all say that Howard is more valuable to the team, but the Loyola game doesn't really match up. While most would
say Howard's performance helped solidify his case, I see this as a potential to argue the opposite. Howard has one of the best games of his career and
Hayward clearly played below par and the result was a loss. There have been numerous games in which Howard has played below par (@UIC is the best example), or
just not played due to foul trouble, and we have been able to win those games thanks to Hayward stepping up. In considering this, Hayward has a case for being
more important to the team than Howard. Additionally, Hayward is in the HL top 10 in nearly every statistical category. I am split 50/50 on who the POY should
be, but I thought someone should start a case for Hayward. If it's not a Butler player, my guess is J'Nathan gets it.
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riksmits4prez |
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Posts: 210 (02/17/09 08:38 PM) |
Strongly disagree to the "it's not close" comment
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Bulldog since Birth |
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Posts: 312 (02/17/09 09:25 PM) |
touche vinceyoung
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BU 1999 |
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Posts: 936 (02/17/09 09:27 PM) |
vinceyoung wrote: I agree with this completely. I wish Hayward would shoot more. He is shooting over 45% from 3 point land! |
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riksmits4prez |
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Posts: 212 (02/17/09 09:38 PM) |
vinceyoung wrote:This is exactly what I was looking for..someone to defend Hayward. Granted he had 14 and 8 or something Sunday, but he didn't shoot exceptionally well from the field/play well as a whole. |
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ButlerFan2542 |
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Posts: 791 (02/17/09 09:58 PM) |
Although Gordon is very deserving, I would have to think Matt would get the award.
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peeps112 |
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Posts: 442 (02/18/09 02:44 AM) |
I think that Hayward has been more consistent in Horizon League play. Matt has often got bogged down in foul trouble and Gordon/Shelvin have had to carry us in
games. I think Vinceyoung made an excellent point that Matt had by far his best game of the season against Loyola while Gordon played his worst (poor shooting,
defense, and average decision-making) - and we lost. Still, sense and reason dictates that it should be a close call.
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XIUMAN |
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Posts: 1009 (02/18/09 05:56 AM) |
Gordon has been our most consistant through out the season. He is our most talented and probably our best player. I would have no problems with him being POY,
which he deserves and may well receive. With that said, I still think Matt is our most vauable player.
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jziemer |
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Posts: 1008 (02/18/09 06:58 AM) |
A scenario that would not be surprising:
Gordon: HLN POY Howard: voted team MVP |
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JRSmith122 |
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Posts: 518 (02/18/09 07:23 AM) |
The problem is that these two guys might take votes from each other resulting in someone else sneaking in to claim it. With that being said I think more
coaches see Matt as the one Butler player they try to stop, get in foul trouble, or minimize. Here are some additional points:
Matt guards the best inside player every game for Butler--Gordon usually guards the worst perimeter player for the other team. They average same amount of points but Matt is more efficient, shooting a better FG% and has more points per shot. Matt leads the team in rebounding and does it inside against the biggest player from the other team--Gordon is second is often able to go rebound without having to worry about blocking out his own guy (Xavier is just one example of this). Gordon has much upside IMO but Matt is the POY and MVP IMO. |
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downtownshooter |
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Posts: 1766 (02/18/09 08:59 AM) |
I agree with what JR is saying.
Does Howard get penalized for being in foul trouble, or rewarded for doing more in the minutes he plays than Gordon. This discussion is not meant to diminish the importance of either player. Obviously, we need both to play well to win most games, but ask yourself this question. If we didn't have one or the other, which would have a better record. Given our lack of depth in the post, I think it is easy to say our record would be signifcantly worse without Matt and only slightly worse if Gordon was not playing. This has to do with many things that don't show up in the stat sheet. |
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 Staxawax |
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Posts: 3527 (02/18/09 09:19 AM) |
DTS, on the money as usual. These 2 have a lot of stats that are virtually identical. But, as we saw against Loyola, when Matt stays on the floor he dominates.
Gordon is still learning (which is really scary for the rest of the league).
Matt...... MVP of the league. Gordon...... Newcomer of the year in the league. 
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There Is No Butler Way |
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Posts: 153 (02/18/09 01:23 PM) |
downtownshooter wrote:But then you're essentially giving Matt bonus points for POY just because we have other players who can fill Gordon's role. Actually, doesn't the fact that we have a lot more depth in Gordon's position make his stats even more impressive, since they are spread among more players? If you're the only 7 footer on a junior high basketball team, it's a lot easier to shine. (edit: no, I am not calling BU a junior high basketball team - it's just an analogy)
Last Edited By: There Is No Butler Way
02/18/09 01:28 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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downtownshooter |
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Posts: 1768 (02/18/09 01:36 PM) |
TINBW,
I am not saying that Gordon has more people who can fill his shoes. I don't think anybody brings his skill set to the table. But, he is another perimeter player for us. If he gets into foul trouble, a combination of our starters with any player off the bench can fill that void. With Howard on the bench, there has not be a suitable combination of players that has been successful in sustaining us, in my opinion. I love this discussion because there really are two right answers in a lot of senses. The way I look at it, Howard is my no-brainer pick. I would love to survey the other 9 coaches in the league and ask them which player they gameplan the most around when preparing for Butler. I would imagine Howard is the overwhelming answer in that question. You can not let Matt Howard go 1-on-1 in a game. Now, when Gordon strengthens himself a little bit and mixes a more consistent dribble-drive and post game, that can certainly change. |
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Staxawax |
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Posts: 3533 (02/18/09 01:58 PM) |
We need the inside/out game to create the open jump shots. Without Matt, we do not get that.
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BU2007 |
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Posts: 68 (02/18/09 02:20 PM) |
downtownshooter wrote: downtownshooter wrote:I definitely agree with both of those statements. But this is just amazing: According to the BU game notes for the UWM game, in the HL Hayward is fifth in scoring (13.8 ), fifth in rebounding (6.4), fourth in field goal shooting (.491), first in 3-point field goal shooting (.460), third in free throw shooting (.811), fourth in 3-point field goals (2.3), sixth in steals (1.6), eighth in blocked shots (0.9), third in defensive rebounds (5.0) and sixth in minutes played (32.2). That's top 8 in ten different categories for the HL. I have no idea how I would vote. |
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